Dignity? Exclusivity? Is this goff?

[sistercarrion]

Inspired by a post here: the_goth_elite and various posts on mancgoff recently. Firstly, I think I lost my dignity years ago :) Actually, don't think I ever had any. For me (please note for ME) anyhow.. the whole thing isn't about exclusivity, but inclusivity. After all, if we don't bring 'spookykids' under our wing, show 'em some decent tunes, and how to do their eyeliner, then how are they to learn? LOL

As noted by better people than me, goth is by it's very nature and indeed by it's beginnings, a magpie subculture. We beg,steal or borrow from many others. That's just a fact, I'm not saying that it's a good or bad one. If we're to be elitist, then surely we're shutting ourselves off from change. If a subculture doesn't evolve, then it dies. End of. IMO that's the reason goff has lasted so long in it's many and varied forms.

So opinions,views, debate?
Should goths be elitists? If so, why? Should we be inclusive? Not to get into a WIG corner, despite the title, but I am interested in viewpoints on this, but play nice kiddles!

Comments

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

everyone should be elitist!

lets face it, not everyone is equal, and there's no point in pretending we are. (i tried it for years, felt crap about myself because of it, then realised/accepted that i AM better than a lot of people in a lot of ways, and that's something to be proud of, not ashamed of.)

it's good for subcultures to be resonably elitist, and too much inclusion means that assholes get included and that make's the scene shit. a night out is only as good as the people you're surrounded by, yes?

mind you, i'm one of the most elitist people i know, so i'm probably blinded by bias or something... :P

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

One point only for now..as I have to go out. I'll take the first point..

You're right to be proud of what makes you, you. That doesn't necessarily follow that anyone is better than anyone else though. I prefer to see the positive side of that as valuing those differences, celebrating diversity, rather than feeling that i'm better than others.

That's all you get for now.. more to follow when I've had a ponder..

[lilyuk.livejournal.com]

I couldn't have put it better myself!

Lets face it, there are 'assholes' within most subcultures, the goth scene being no exception - primarily the people who do think they are better than others. Being 'elitist' isn't going to prevent 'assholes' it will breed them.

Just my opinion of course :)

Lily x

Re: night out..

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

.. But where do people start in that case? People do not emerge fully fledged from some sort of chrysalis as a goth butterfly (though it would be mucho amusing if they did!). Instead someone might invite them along to a night they haven't been to before, expose them to some good tunes they haven't heard before etc. I love it when someone asks me what a certain tune is, or tells me that they've never been before, but they're coming along again. I remember what I was like when I first started getting into darker and darker tunes. I used to harrass DJs for any tune I liked.. I had a hunger for the music, still have.. it was that simple. If no one had ever shared their knowledge, then i wouldn't be involved today. I love sharing info about music and bands.. if we didn't share, if we were elitist about it, then the whole thing would grind to a halt, become static, and die. Everything has to evolve, otherwise it dies, becomes stale, redundant..

Who decides the elite? Who bestows them the honour?

Re: night out..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

it's not about not sharing knowledge, i'm all for that, what i mean is that a few newbies around and about is fine (so long as they're well behaved!), but great swathes of spookykids descending upon nights would be horrendously shit.

my elitism is mostly dignity/intelligence/personality related. no matter how much someone knows about music, if they are stupid, undignified, or a complete cunt, i will think that i'm better than them. as would most others (if only to themselves)

i get really aggrivated by stupidity, ignorance doesn't bother me as much, so long as there is a will to learn. people who have no will to learn or improve themselves in any way annoy me. i'd happily adopt a newbie so long as they were humble about it, what i don't want is some little cradle of filth shite thinking they're all that cos they've got 100 claw rings and garish makeup, moshing on the dancefloor... it just makes me cringe!

Re: night out..

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

People who have no will to learn aggravate me too. So we agree on something there!! I don't see that as elitism though. I see that as not fufilling our purpose as humans.. Everything is a learning curve. Life is experience. Anyone who says they know everything is lying.

It's good to see what actually you define as your own brand of elitism. It's interesting. If you just say "I'm elitist", then perhaps peeps don't see the whole picture of what you mean, hence kneejerk reactions..

Re: night out..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

hehe, good to hear we agree! tis odd though, i would see it as "i always try to learn and improve myself so therefore i am better than those who don't" whereas i suspect you'd be a bit more PC about it... hehe!

slogan: Shona Elitism(tm) - "DON'T BE STUPID!" ;) ;) ;)

Re: night out..

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Don't know about the PC perspective. If something pisses me off.. everyone in a ten mile radius usually knows about it.. hee..

Me I just can't comprehend why peeps don't wish to learn to improve their lot, or at least to broaden their horizons. It's a big world out there! There is scum about, I wouldn't pretend there isn't, but why are they content to be like that? Why waste your life like that? Why have no dream to aim for? I guess where it makes you angry at them, it just makes me sad that people are like that.. ho hum :/

Slogan is good :) Very you..

Re: night out..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

Precisely!

I just get angry because there are such an abundance of people with that outlook, and it makes them think the world owes them something. I have absolutely no problem with the welfare state, I think it's a fantastic concept, what I HATE are career doalites (especially the ones who go on about immigrants taking all 'our' hard earned taxes... GRRRR!!!)

Re: night out..

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

I'm not advocating huge swathes of spookykids.. LOL.. anyhoo.. think the majority of them would run a mile if we played them some good tunes ;) Hehe.. But everyone has to start somewhere. I was a metaller, as I'm sure many were.. I listen to widely varying music, dependant upon my mood, as I'm sure you do too.

Taste in music does not define how much better someone is than someone else is though..

Re: night out..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

of course it doesn't! i don't think i said that, i just meant the general spookykid attitude: from what i've experienced lately they are exactly the same in their stupidity and childishness as groups of teenage scallies, they just wear a different uniform. the ones i've met have no brain to back up their choice to be *alternative* (haha, yeah, right) they're just a bit angrier than your average teenager so they like different music... and like to pretend they are sOoO eVil!!11! :/ :/ :/

in my experience that is. ;)

my point is that the newbreed/spookykid thing has changed a lot. newbies are one thing, i was a newbie, i think everyone reading this was, but now it's turned into a fad, and there is no effort involved to get into the 'scene' anymore:

now it's just a case of: watch mtv2/kerrang. get a uniform from quiggins. go to the krazyhouse and be an asshole.

whereas once it took some degree of research to discover different types of music, and clothing etc, now it's just too easy access (well, the spooky thing is, which has a knock on effect when they try to be *goth*) it's not outstandingly weird or strange anymore, nobody shouts freak, your parents no longer ask if you're worshipping satan/on drugs. it's all just so... mainstream? you know?

i think that process of gradually becoming intergrated into a scene through your own effort and learning was really healthy, the frontier of that has gone now, sure it's still hard to get into more clique-ey bits of subcultures, but it's basically a case of *today, i shall be a goth!* and pow: you're there. hence = lots of silly people!

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

BTW I'm not attacking you personally here.. I'm genuinely interested in what people think on this..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

good good, i'd be a bit upset if you were! :P

i like ratings communities, the creator of this also moderates gothic_beauties, and is a total bitch to bad applicants, it amuses me, so i joined this one too. sure it's a bit mean, but tbh if anyone gets that upset by being rejected they aren't worth bothering with anyway!

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Yes.. but try to see it this way for a moment. How would you feel if someone did the same to you? That someone behaved to you in the manner that you're advocating? I know I'd be a bit upset.. but then i wouldn't put myself up to that. The appreciation from strangers is something that doesn't feature in my life. Friends yes, strangers.. I'm too old to care!!

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

precisely, i don't care what strangers think, and neither should anyone.

the point is when you apply to ratings communities you should be fully aware (from reading the rules etc) that you will be judged harshly, and you know what you could be letting yourself in for.

how would i feel if i were ruthlessly rejected? probably pissed off if they were being unreasonable, but if they made valid points then i'd probably give it some thought...

and i have been judged far more harshly by my friends than i ever have by strangers... which in someways is good and in someways sucks. a lot.

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Personal affirmations are good for the soul.. but not at the expense of others. For me, it's all about balance..

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

it's not personal affirmations, it's people genuinely asking you what you think of them in terms of their knowledge and looks, and you are free to be completely honest to them! it's great! but probably not for anyone who doesn't find idiocy so inherently irritating as i do... :/

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Think we're thinking at cross purposes here! I meant that your personal strength of belief in yourself was inherrently a good thing, but that to then use that as a basis to look down upon others was perhaps not. But then, that's just my opinion ;)

Idiocy is unfortunately everywhere. I tend to not go out to delibrately seek it by joining these communities, or evaluating newbies in this way though.. I find it searches me out quick enough, usually within my own brain..LOL

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

i don't use my strength of belief in myself as a basis to look down on others, infact, it's the opposite way around.

i find it difficult to see myself as anything more than shockingly mediocre (apparently because i set myself such high standards to live by), but when i take a look around me i can realise that even if i'm not good enough to be content within myself, i am a lot better in a lot of ways than a lot of people, which gives me some twisted sense of pride :/ :/ :/ horrible really, but it makes me happier to be me...

and idiocy: everyday idiocy has to be dealt with with tact and diplomacy! in these communities you can be as horrid as you like and not actually be being horrid, because you are judging the app and not the person. if you get my meaning? it's like somone ripping apart your cv, harsh, but most realise it is no real reflection on themselves.

[vampiregoth.livejournal.com]

Im not having a go or anything but what is it that makes you think you are better than anyone else?. Its good to be proud of who you are but dont you think saying you are better than someone else is taking it a little to far?

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

no, it's not.

and what makes me think that is that the vast majority of people (thankfully the balance is slightly more favourable within the gothic subculture) are stupid.

your average chav on the street? how could you possibly say you are equal to them? i refuse to accept they are even of the same species to be perfectly honest.

i hate political correctness, and i hate that it is so engrained in peoples minds that they have to try so hard to see beyond what they *should and shouldn't* think or say. if something is a fact, it is acceptable to say. i can back up all my opinions on "people i think i'm better than" or else i wouldn't think that in the first place. sorry if that offends you.

Equality...

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

We kinda had this discussion in the car after last saturday, but to elaborate a bit on my thoughts. If we judge people by what they wear to this extreme then are we really any better than those who shout "mosher" in the street because of what we wear? I know everyone to a certain extent judges by impression, that's the nature of human beings, and people are lying if they say they're not, but to this extreme?

I like it when people who wouldn't normally go to an alternative night out come up to me and tell me they've had a good night. If that person goes away with a more rounded perception of 'wot we do', then maybe we can stop some of the harrasment. If just one person goes away with the thought that "That lot are ok", then we're on to a good thing. Think about it. If that person then defends goffs (or whatever) to others, then that to me is a kewl and groovy thing. If they're well behaved and not insulting to the regulars, if they respect the rules of good conduct, then I've got no problem with it.

Re: Equality...

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

nooo! i had this argument with somone in politics today!: i do not judge a chav by what they wear, anymore than i judge an actual human being (*note: tongue in cheek comment*) by what they wear!

what i have a problem with is the *chav attitude* of leeching from society and only bringing destruction in return. i'm talking about antisocial, violent behaviour. bad parenting. lack of education and will to learn. lack of any kind of culture. scum, basically. (and yes, i know that the middle classes can be bad parents too! i'm talking about the fact that children learn how to behave from their parents, so chavs invariably teach their children to be scum too, and gradually destroy all their potential to be anything more than a chav)

the person behind the sovereigns and burberry is the thing i have a problem with, i'm sure there are a shocking minority of nice chavs out there, the problem is the majority are scum.

and i don't mind the odd chav (so long as they are well behaved etc) at nights, of course i'd prefer none (not just at nights, but in the world!), but like you say, i appreciate it could be advantageous in building bridges.

what i do have a problem with is if they behave badly, or if there are too many (ie. that sanctuary) where by the regulars are outnumbered by people they fear are going to punch them... that's not what i (or anyone i know) goes out for, i don't consider having to 'watch myself' a good night out. and i doubt anyone else does either!

Behaviour..

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

.. i quite agree with you regarding your example of a time when the balance didn't work. For me, my priority is always the security of the regulars. If they are nervous, they're not having a good time.

There is more I want to say.. but my brain is melting outta' my ears.. so I'll leave it for now :)

[dollytastic.livejournal.com]

Looking over their members, seems they really aren't that elite anyway.

Elitism is stupid, its not just feeling superior, its utterly refusing to even see if people who look less cooler than you are possibly actually cool. apparently if you go to slimes without a "this is

I know im better than you all, but I still talk to you ;) hehehe

All the "in" goths these days used to be ravers or spookykids anyway, they are just trying desperately hard to pretend they never were.

If you run an elite club night, you have the bonus of being cooler, and getting a "better" clientele, however you also limit the people who can get in, thus reducing your possible audience. its much better to actually admit and include everyone, but seem like you dont.

[helena-draven.livejournal.com]

I think we should be inclusive, as when I see 'I'm-gother-than-thou' posing it makes me grind me teeth. It's one thing to pose and preen a wee bit, but another to feign superiority and look down your nose 'cos somebody isn't wearing the 'right' boots/corset/makeup/whatever or owns everything recorded by sisters/mission/manson/whoever. I love goth for its ecclectivity and spirituality, its inspired borrowing from other cultures, subcultures and spiritual paths. What other subculture could you have somebody dressed in a satin corset and stiletto heels on one end of the spectrum and somebody in UV body armour and matching falls on the other?? What other subculture embraces New Age, occultism and Wicca on the one hand and zen on the other? For a lot of peeps, goth is a passing rebellion, but it's those folk who stick with it for decades who are the backbone of the culture (And I do mean culture and not 'scene', as the 'scene' tends to have a lot of elements I dislike, exclusivity and snobbery being just one). Well *shuffles feet* there's my two penneth!!

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Exactly.. you kinda' echo the core of what i'm trying to get at. The very subculture of goth is eclectic by it's very nature. So who decides the elite? There's no way of doing this logically or fairly, and indeed I wouldn't want to. Variety is the spice of life after all. A quote i often have to lob in the direction of peeps shouting 'mosher' etc is that "If everyone was exactly the same, then life would quickly become very boring indeed".

[vampiregoth.livejournal.com]

I couldnt agree more with that, We shoukd never even try to be elite because if we do then our whoe sub culture will die off eventually. Member by member instead of passing on in a different form to a new generation.

[festen.livejournal.com]

i can't help being elite. i'm just better than all of you. put together. get over it and move on, losers.



;)

[jasmineyoghurt.livejournal.com]

lol! (i agree, you are the best! :P )

[sistercarrion.livejournal.com]

Whatever dude ;p
You just keep saying that to yourself.. hee!